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Man angry at IRS crashes plane into building
Skeeve
http://news.yahoo...rash_texas

AUSTIN, Texas – A software engineer furious with the Internal Revenue Service launched a suicide attack on the agency Thursday by crashing his small plane into an office building containing nearly 200 IRS employees, setting off a raging fire that sent workers fleeing for their lives. At least one person in the building was missing.


You can read his last internet posting here:

http://atheiststo...icle_id=20

He explains why he did what he did.

Until more details emerge concerning his tax problems, I'll reserve comment.
Edited by Skeeve on 02/18/2010 17:27
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Doubting Thomas
So when do the conspiracy theories start claiming that the government was really behind this?
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me and not you.
 
seeker
The truly sad part of all of this is that the 'tax reading parties' he was going to early on was part of a republican strategy to discredit the tax systems.

When Barry Goldwater realized that his dream of getting rid of FDR's New Deal, particularly Social Security would keep him from being elected he started the republican party onto this process of creating think tanks to reframe arguments. The idea was to present the same type of conservative positions that led to him being labeled a madman by LBJ as reasonable.

Since that time conservatives have managed to sell the public on the idiotic notion of unlimited tax breaks even while complaining about overspending and pretending we can't afford social programs. They did this by promoting the idea that government is bad, thus leading people to completely distrust their own country.

Essentially, if this country is to work then people have to be willing to contribute to it. Take that away and eventually you have no country as people just walk away whenever the country is in need. Republicans, in their hatred of the New Deal, are actually provoking the kinds of actions this idiot pulled just so that they can maintain their authority.
 
Skeeve
seeker wrote:
They did this by promoting the idea that government is bad, thus leading people to completely distrust their own country.



It worked.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
seeker
It worked too well Skeeve. Now we have a bunch of idiots who shouldn't be able to get the time of day taken seriously and the morons that follow them are keeping us from running the country in any rational way.
 
Sinny
Well he's nuts to do what he did and there's no excuse for what he did. He would have been better off not taking that course with his friends and changing his career. I am always leery of people who want copies of just about everything the public is permitted to have when it comes to paying tax dollars. They almost always turn out to be nut-jobs. Most just want to be heard and feel important but every now and then you get one like this guy. I think the auditing was his last straw.

Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.


Yep that's an invitation to claim and blame he's atheist either that or he's christian who really see the Catholics for what they are. My Cousin's Company lost all his pension just a few short years before retiring.
 
seeker
My issue is that the Republican party is giving nut jobs like this further rationalization to act out. Their over the top rhetoric is what fuels acts like this.

This, IMO, is a lot like religion where rational people ignore an underlying dangerous ideology while fanatics assume that the really bad parts are okay since no one denounces them.
 
Sinny
As much as I agree with you Seeker because I see it too I also think there's more to it with this one.

I seem to remember Palin saying something similar to what you are talking aobut in one of the video's on the site I posted. It seems to have been removed.

EDIT: she was sitting the couch or chair at the time. Oh and not that I mean you're saying it's the only reason.
Edited by Sinny on 02/20/2010 17:43
 
seeker
Sinny wrote:
As much as I agree with you Seeker because I see it too I also think there's more to it with this one.

I seem to remember Palin saying something similar to what you are talking aobut in one of the video's on the site I posted. It seems to have been removed.

EDIT: she was sitting the couch or chair at the time. Oh and not that I mean you're saying it's the only reason.


I think there is a lot going on with this guy, in that respect you are right. Mypoint is that there are a lot of people who are like time bombs waiting to go off. The height of irresponsibility is fueling the delusions of people like that.
 
Kowboy
To try to blame the actions of a lunatic on a political party is lunacy itself.

Kowboy
 
Cynic
It's complicated. If an angry mob comes through town, grabs an innocent person, and hangs them in the park, who do you blame?

 
seeker
Yeah but this is more like an angry mob being led by the mayor of the town.

Kowboy - Politicians have a duty to act responsibly. When they resort to divisive tactics and incite people to act in a destructive way they are as guilty as a person who yells fire in a movie theater when there is no fire.

The Republican party has allowed itself to go completely off the rails in their tacit support of these tea bag nutcases
 
Cynic
seeker wrote:
Yeah but this is more like an angry mob being led by the mayor of the town.

Kowboy - Politicians have a duty to act responsibly. When they resort to divisive tactics and incite people to act in a destructive way they are as guilty as a person who yells fire in a movie theater when there is no fire.

The Republican party has allowed itself to go completely off the rails in their tacit support of these tea bag nutcases



Precisely my point, Seeker. While the individuals who hung the person are most directly to blame, it's ultimately the ones who frothed up the crowd in the first place that precipitated the incident. History is too full of examples to point to for anyone to dismiss the cause and effect nature of this.
 
JohnH
Please forgive me in advance, this is going to be a bit long winded.

I came into adulthood in the mid to late sixties. I was the child of an upper working class father, he was a foreman mechanic. I also was a student at UC Berkeley starting with the "Free Speech Movement" and ending with the "Peoples Park".

I still remember within a week or so of starting college being handed a flyer printed by the IWW, an organization I have great admiration for and with whom I mostly agree, that announced that the american working class was ready to revolt. I knew that american working class from having grown up among them and could only marvel at the lack of understanding that flyer exposed.

In a few years the Black Party for Self Defense formed. They advocated armed protection of african-americans and in some cases actual violence toward the police and other governmental organizations. I understood their underlying point then and continue to agree with it. It is well known that african-americans suffer disproportionately from police violence. Does that justify taking a position that has the potential of putting both your members and people who may be influenced by you at risk, no. Particularly if you understand that your position will force the state to marshal all its weapons, political and physical, against you.

To this day I avoid listening to anything Angela Davis says. She advocated revolution and even purchased the weapons used in the Marin County Courthouse shooting. She then hid behind the court system and was acquitted. Huey P. Newton died in what is considered to be a drug deal gone bad.

I did not comment on either the IWW or the Black Panther Party because I find them politically flawed. I tend to agree with the bulk of their political positions. Where I disagree is with the acceptance of and to some sense the advocacy of violence. Violence against the state will more often lead to significant negative response than success.

The great difference in the current situation is that the acceptance of violence is now from the right. There is no one on the right who will offer any negative response to this acceptance. Remember the Oklahoma City bombing. Who on the right suggested that this was an irresponsible act.

The republican party wants to fold the Tea Party Movement into their base. Cautioning them against certain parts of their rhetoric and actions may inhibit this. I do not think that it will work but that is the republicans intent.

It remains to be seen whether or not the acceptance of violence leads to more violent acts. I suspect that it will and I also suspect that no voices on the right speak out against it. They will take the position that it is the single act of an unstable person. They have no responsibility and will not speak out against it.

Another great difference in the current situation is that I do not think the response of the state will be as negative as it was and continues to be against the left.
 
catman
Great post, JohnH. I would only state that it seems that the Tea Party movement is attempting to take over the Republican Party, rather than the other way round. Consider the attacks on John McCain by them for not being radical enough. The Republicans are afraid of the Tea Parties, since that is where most of the energy is. When I see the Tea Party "spontaneous demonstrations", there is that mob mentality which threatens democracy. Rather than reason with opponents, shout them down and call them names. What's next?
Edited by catman on 02/22/2010 17:23
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Kowboy
seeker wrote:
Yeah but this is more like an angry mob being led by the mayor of the town.

Kowboy - Politicians have a duty to act responsibly. When they resort to divisive tactics and incite people to act in a destructive way they are as guilty as a person who yells fire in a movie theater when there is no fire.

The Republican party has allowed itself to go completely off the rails in their tacit support of these tea bag nutcases


seeker:

Perhaps you could document a single case of the Republican party approving of "tea bag nutcases".

Here is documentation of the left advocating violence:

http://radioequal...lence.html

Kowboy
 
seeker
Kowboy wrote:



seeker:

Perhaps you could document a single case of the Republican party approving of "tea bag nutcases".

Here is documentation of the left advocating violence:

http://radioequal...lence.html

Kowboy


You owe me a new keyboard. I had just taken a mouthful of coffee before I read your post.

Are you seriously going to try to contend that Sarah Palin's campaign comments about Obama 'palling around with terrorists' wasn't an incitement to violence? Do you remember what was shouted from the crowd when she made that comment? In case you don't remember that was when some idiot shouted out 'kill him', a situation that was repeated several times at different rallies.

Maybe we should talk about Glenn Beck's ridiculous attempts to portray Obama as a racist out to destroy caucasians. Are you really going to try to naively pretend that claiming the president of the US is out to 'get' the majority of people in the US is not an incitement to violence? In a recent Beck show we saw the following statements:

At the 1:50 mark, "tax revolts….this is gonna' be violent….cities will resemble Dodge City, gangs who control, motorcycle marauders…."

At the 5:00 mark, in Beck and FOX's "light scenario"….Glenn asks, "I don't think we would head for an American revolution, we'd head for a French Revolution." Beck's guest, at the 5:50 mark, references the second amendment (militia gun ownership rights), "weaponry to defend themselves, as a last resort, against a tyrannical government." "A tyranny of incompetence….I think that, ultimately, is what our country is facing." Beck adds, "don't get me wrong, I am against the government,…and I do think they have been betraying the principles of our Founders." "Do the soldiers come in, and do they fight with the people? What does the Army, what does the military do?" Guest, Michael Scheurer, "I don't think the military is going to shoot on the American people." Beck…"People are training for civil unrest all over this country."


How about Senator Chuck Grassley's idiotic statement;

"The president of the United States, that's who you should be concerned about. Because he's acting like a little Hitler," said Tom Eisenhower, a World War II veteran. "I'd take a gun to Washington if enough of you would go with me."


Or shall we look at Judge Napalitano's idiotic Fox show Freedom Watch where, on 3/18/2009 he introduced the show with;

"In this show, we talk about what the government has done to take your liberty and property away."


That particular show featured a right-wing nutbag named Alex Jones who was hocking his new book about how Obama will take people's guns away. Alex Jones is the guy that cop-killer Richard Andrew Poplawski often cited as his source of information about what the government was 'really up to'.

I could go on and on Kowboy. Between Fox news and the right-wing idiots in Congress there is plenty of evidence. How badly do you want me to bury you on this?

Let me anticipate your response to save you some time. You are going to claim that high profile politicians in the Republican Party don't actually represent the Party, that Fox News doesn't speak for Republicans (ha) or some other nonsense. Let's be very clear. The fact is that Republicans relied on the angry rhetoric and racial hatred and across the board have tried to use it to divide the electorate and the Republican Party has tacitly approved it by doing nothing to denounce it or quell the violent rhetoric.

The funny part is that because of their own stupidity there is a law called the Smith Act that was passed in 1940. It made it a crime to advocate or to teach the desirability of overthrowing the United States Government, or to be a member of any organization which does the same. All of the statements I pointed out are potentially violations of that law
 
seeker
JohnH wrote:
Please forgive me in advance, this is going to be a bit long winded.

I came into adulthood in the mid to late sixties. I was the child of an upper working class father, he was a foreman mechanic. I also was a student at UC Berkeley starting with the "Free Speech Movement" and ending with the "Peoples Park".

I still remember within a week or so of starting college being handed a flyer printed by the IWW, an organization I have great admiration for and with whom I mostly agree, that announced that the american working class was ready to revolt. I knew that american working class from having grown up among them and could only marvel at the lack of understanding that flyer exposed.

In a few years the Black Party for Self Defense formed. They advocated armed protection of african-americans and in some cases actual violence toward the police and other governmental organizations. I understood their underlying point then and continue to agree with it. It is well known that african-americans suffer disproportionately from police violence. Does that justify taking a position that has the potential of putting both your members and people who may be influenced by you at risk, no. Particularly if you understand that your position will force the state to marshal all its weapons, political and physical, against you.

To this day I avoid listening to anything Angela Davis says. She advocated revolution and even purchased the weapons used in the Marin County Courthouse shooting. She then hid behind the court system and was acquitted. Huey P. Newton died in what is considered to be a drug deal gone bad.

I did not comment on either the IWW or the Black Panther Party because I find them politically flawed. I tend to agree with the bulk of their political positions. Where I disagree is with the acceptance of and to some sense the advocacy of violence. Violence against the state will more often lead to significant negative response than success.

The great difference in the current situation is that the acceptance of violence is now from the right. There is no one on the right who will offer any negative response to this acceptance. Remember the Oklahoma City bombing. Who on the right suggested that this was an irresponsible act.

The republican party wants to fold the Tea Party Movement into their base. Cautioning them against certain parts of their rhetoric and actions may inhibit this. I do not think that it will work but that is the republicans intent.

It remains to be seen whether or not the acceptance of violence leads to more violent acts. I suspect that it will and I also suspect that no voices on the right speak out against it. They will take the position that it is the single act of an unstable person. They have no responsibility and will not speak out against it.

Another great difference in the current situation is that I do not think the response of the state will be as negative as it was and continues to be against the left.


Beautifully stated. It sounds like I'm about a decade behind you, I was in college in the seventies and actually met Angela Davis who was teaching a class at Pomona College when I was attending nearby Harvey Mudd College.

Your point, that the acceptance of violence by either side is really the issue, cannot be emphasized enough. It is especially poignant when you realize that this isn't a struggle for equal rights or to end an unjust war but merely the desire of one party to be in control so that they can make their cronies rich.
 
JohnH
Kowboy, Seeker hit that hanging curveball out of the park so I will follow up only with a double. How about Dick Armey speaking at Tea Party events. How about Cheney still defending illegal torture well after multiple reports about how ineffective it is. How about O'Reilly calling the now dead Dr. Tiller something like "Tiller the killer". OK maybe that was a triple.

Seeker, oddly enough I had a great uncle (or some other shirt tail relative) that taught at one of the Pomona colleges, not Cal Poly. He died before you would have been a student there, besides at the moment I cannot remember his name.

It will interesting to see how this all plays out. The US has historically responded with state violence when the left was a threat no matter if the left in question was advocating or not rejecting violence. I suspect, really know, that it this case potential violence from the right will be met with disinterest by the state. Perhaps at the very far fringes they will respond, unfortunately it will probably turn into Ruby Ridge or Waco and end up being more of a rallying point for the fringe than anything else.
 
Kowboy
JohnH:

If you think Seeker hit that one out of the park, you are much more lefty delusionist than I imagined in my wildest dreams. He makes a huge sweeping statement with no specific substantiation whatsoever; I link to prove my point.

If you want sweeping generalizations, you two deserve each other.

It was incredibly easy to disprove the "armed white guy at the Obama rally" myth that was so popular here. This one falls just as easily.

Kowboy
Edited by Kowboy on 02/23/2010 23:16
 
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