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Tyler Clementi
JohnH
In the interest of full disclosure I am heterosexual.

There is a long article in the New Yorker of February 6th about this young man who jumped off of the George Washington Bridge. Clementi did this after pictures of him kissing another man were posted on the internet, pictures taken without his permission and done secretly by his college roommate Dahrun Ravi. Various comments were also made through twitter and other social media.

The article paints a much different picture than what I remember from reading about the incident at the time. I understood at that time they showed Clementi actually having sex with another man instead of just kissing, admittedly in a state of undress, at least the shirts were off. And I remember the impression of multiple events not just the one.

Certainly the behavior of Ravi and his accomplish, a Molly Wei, was loutish and invasive of Clementi's privacy but to my mind Clementi over reacted. I know for almost a certainty that if the same thing happened to a heterosexual couple most would laugh it off.

Public reaction was very strong and many homosexual groups called for some kind of criminal action against Ravi and Wei. Criminal action was indeed taken. Wei coped a plea, I am not going to check the whole article again, but I think she will serve little or no time but has to go to counseling. Revi however faces a possible 10 year sentence and any conviction will probably send him back to his native India.

I honestly think the public reaction was an over reaction. I know there had been other cases of homosexuals committing suicide, but most of these people (mostly under 18) had suffered years of abuse not one incident. It is very important to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority particularly when those minorities have suffered years of repression. I also think that we should not over react when someone commits suicide and it can be construed as caused by the biases of another.

I understand that internet cruelty is a serious problem particularly with middle and high school students.

Frankly the initiating action seems more like a stupid college prank, both students were freshman. A prank more stupid, with possibly a cruel element, than most but mostly stupid.

I do not think that Clementi was comfortable with himself and that was a greater cause of the suicide than the pictures and comments on the internet.
 
seeker
Just playing devil's advocate here.

Don't you think that there is a reason some homosexuals choose to remain closeted? We still live in a world where people like Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum portray homosexuality as equivalent to bestiality.

The fact is that the one of the effects of bigotry is exactly the kind of intimidation that we see in this case. There was no overt threat but the perception of what might happen when he was 'found out' could have been overwhelming.

I can't relate to you any personal examples of homophobia, I'm not gay and have never had the experience. I can relate to you examples of times when I've heard people I know make disparaging comments about hispanics when they didn't know I am hispanic. Losing relationships to bigotry can be heartbreaking.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
Reading a little about it now - Dharun Ravi - massive cunt. He deserves all the time the law can squeeze out of him.

In the interest of full disclosure I have a rather dark freckle on my left armSmile
 
JohnH
TE, Dharun Ravi is a cunt so much so that even old "friends" commented negatively about him, he was also maybe 19 at the oldest when these events occurred. I know that I was just starting to become truly adult about that age, but I still did have unfortunate obsessions about sex and did things in regards that subject I should not have.

Seeker, In my defense regarding your comments. I have lived my whole life in the San Francisco bay area. In my youth up to say 1966 I am sure I encountered closeted people. Since than or a little later I have lived in a culture where homosexual people were open about their orientation. It would make you blush to hear some of the stories a dyke told me out in the back alley smoking.

It is not that all the homosexual people I met would tell you what they were. There was a definite age demarcation with many of the homosexuals older than say 50 (65-70 today) not going to tell you their orientation but obviously not afraid of it either. Younger ones would, like the dyke I mentioned above, not necessarily rub your face in it but were clear what their orientation was.

A couple of odd things. The last 49er game I went to was in a group that included a homosexual man. Another homosexual man and I would discuss the 49ers, again out back smoking. It was kind of hard for my mind to get around the idea of homosexual men who were also fans of football. My own little stab at homophobia.

One day in the beer and wine bar I used to hang out in Oakland I was watching a sporting event. There was a woman next to me that I knew to be homosexual. I was commenting to her about the game to the place she decided I was hitting on her. She felt obligated to tell me something like "you know I am a lesbian". I don't remember how I responded.
Edited by JohnH on 02/11/2012 12:59
 
seeker
John - I have similar experiences. The artist community happens to include a lot of gay people.

My point was not to disparage you, rather to point out that even though many homosexuals are more open about their sexuality these days that openness is a choice that quite a few choose not to be open about it.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
catman
I've known gay guys who were fans of football. My brother did, however, express the view that they shouldn't wear so much padding.

Too many stereotypes about every group!
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Theory_Execution
What I dont understand is how any heterosexual male or homosexual female could tolerate watching american football!

There are pauses and breaks in the action all over the place. It's too stop and start to be interesting as a sport - it's practically a board game.


I tried to post in this thread yesterday but my internet kept timing out.

The guy, even though young, should have been fully aware of what he was doing was illegal, and as he broke laws he should be held responsible for his actions. Not sure what the girl did that was illegal though.
 
seeker
American Football is really an excuse for people to get together. The pauses end up being great opportunities to talk and eat, often at the same time. There is no way to miss any action because endless replays will make the action available to even the most ADD watcher.

Anymore when I watch games by myself I TIVO them. That way I can skip the commercials and pauses. Most games only take about 40-45 minutes to watch this way.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Hypatia
seeker wrote:

American Football is really an excuse for people to get together. The pauses end up being great opportunities to talk and eat, often at the same time. There is no way to miss any action because endless replays will make the action available to even the most ADD watcher.

Anymore when I watch games by myself I TIVO them. That way I can skip the commercials and pauses. Most games only take about 40-45 minutes to watch this way.


I seem to remember instant replays being used mostly for plays that were particularly good or impressive, but now it seems like every play is replayed. I don't care for that much and find it boring.
 
JohnH
This thread has certainly veered into an odd direction.

Seeker, I had no thought that you were trying to disparage me.

I was trying to explain the social milieu I come from. Freely admitting that it could color my feelings.

I would still contend that Clementi was not comfortable in himself, while acknowledging that Ravi is a colossal asshole. I just think that the charges against Ravi were made more onerous because Clementi killed himself. I am not sure that the police or prosecutors could prove a causal relationship, but they choose to believe there was one.

Now for where this thread has drifted.

TE, you are absolutely correct. In stadium, american football has almost become unwatchable because of all the delays for ads. The start stop nature of the game has been there from the beginning but has become worse. Watch Peyton Manning, this was how things were when I first started going to games circa 1959. The players on the field used to control the game. Now the coaches control the game and that has added time between plays as they have to relay their instructions to the players.

The others that said it is a social event at home or in the bar are correct. Watching on tv the breaks between plays allow people to talk, eat or bitch about what is going on.
 
catman
I agree concerning the commercials during TV football games. Pauses that takes thirty seconds according to the rules of the game takes four or five minutes on TV. But it's not just during football games. I usually have something else I do during commercial breaks. Just hit that mute button and resume reading or doing something else.

I really like watching American football, especially college games. I am in withdrawal right now. I was a band geek in high school, although that word had yet to be coined. The band would always have our own competition between ourselves and the other school's band concerning the halftime show. Our football team was quite poor, but the band was better than most!
 
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