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The FBI is watching and waiting
JohnH
Found this in the process of reading Counterpunch, a left on line news letter.

http://www.guardi...years-jail

The US so often makes good use of its police agencies. I suppose Mr. Montes should be happy he was not assassinated like Fred Hampton.

If you did not know, the FBI and its predecessor agencies have been used from the beginning to suppress left organizations and individuals.

They are also rather famous for using agent provocateur's. Someone should at some point compile a list of truly ugly crimes committed after FBI agents goaded some organization or group into committing them.
Edited by JohnH on 06/01/2012 16:45
 
Skeeve
And they're also very good at busting their own terror plots!
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
seeker
We are free to express ourselves in this country as long as we express the right ideas.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
cheshiredragon
If you know how to hide yourself they can't find you Grin I stay well hidden.
That's right, I said it...
 
JohnH
cheshiredragon, you are correct, if you remain hidden enough they will not find you. I use that same method myself.

The problem with that is that being hidden reduces one's chance to affect change.
 
cheshiredragon
True, but life to me is a spectator sport. I rather enjoy watching the powers that be destroy what they have created. I prefer not to join along because if I put someone in power that fscks something up, I am just as much to blame. If I stay out I am guilt free Grin
I should mention that I am 32 and STILL not registered to vote.
That's right, I said it...
 
JohnH
Mr. Montes pleaded no contest to one count of perjury for saying he had not been convicted of a felony when buying a gun in 2010. Three years probation and community service is the judgement. Mind you the felony was throwing a soda can at a policeman.

http://www.sfgate...223D75.DTL

I guess the charges were too extreme for even the FBI to pursue to strongly.

It remains that the power of money and government will squash you if you make too much noise.

Often as happened yesterday in Wisconsin through the mechanism of the ballot. A false democratic method in that unlimited money so often sways the vote.
 
seeker
If people are foolish enough to let themselves be fooled then they deserve the consequences. The failed Wisconsin recall just proves to me that things will have to get real bad here before people wake up.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Skeeve
That was my first thought after hearing about the recall results, seeker.

It would seem a bloody revolution is the only thing that will effect any change.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Theory_Execution
If people are foolish enough to let themselves be fooled then they deserve the consequences.


Seeker, this is a comment I wish Catman was around for.

Do you truely believe this, or was it tongue in cheek? Or specific to Wisconsiens(ienites, ish, Wiscs)?

I think we as societies (you US, me UK) have a lot to answer for when looking to the educational level of our members. There should be classes in school time devoted to reason and mind-games. I understand the US has 'debating' classes, but debating is a disgusting skill that does not address truth in any way.

I have in the past persuaded someone to agree with a statement/proposition I do not agree with, simply through debating tactically - it is worrying that this can be done, and it is what delivers wolves to our doors.

I think the gullible should be given time and help in understanding how they have been wronged and how to avoid it.

To an earlier point, regarding the FBI, there were some good people in it - I watched a documentary recently about three civil rites activits who were murdered on a Votes for Blacks rally in the American South - it was the FBI that led the charge on trying to break the KKK.

All for nowt though, as they didnt have the legal strength to charge of their backs, it was left to local courts, and they let the murderers all go free.
 
seeker
Theory_Execution wrote:

If people are foolish enough to let themselves be fooled then they deserve the consequences.


Seeker, this is a comment I wish Catman was around for.

Do you truely believe this, or was it tongue in cheek? Or specific to Wisconsiens(ienites, ish, Wiscs)?

I think we as societies (you US, me UK) have a lot to answer for when looking to the educational level of our members. There should be classes in school time devoted to reason and mind-games. I understand the US has 'debating' classes, but debating is a disgusting skill that does not address truth in any way.

I have in the past persuaded someone to agree with a statement/proposition I do not agree with, simply through debating tactically - it is worrying that this can be done, and it is what delivers wolves to our doors.

I think the gullible should be given time and help in understanding how they have been wronged and how to avoid it.


I would argue, at least here in the US, that the gullible have had their time to figure things out. We had 8 years of Bush Jr for people to see quite clearly what happens when Republicans implement their policies. We've had 30 years since Reagan to see that the trickle down theory of economics does not work. How much time is reasonable?

It's one thing to get taken advantage of but to let yourself be repeatedly taken advantage of in the same way is stupidity.

Theory_Execution wrote:To an earlier point, regarding the FBI, there were some good people in it - I watched a documentary recently about three civil rites activits who were murdered on a Votes for Blacks rally in the American South - it was the FBI that led the charge on trying to break the KKK.

All for nowt though, as they didnt have the legal strength to charge of their backs, it was left to local courts, and they let the murderers all go free.


Like most things the FBI is not totally good or totally bad. In the 60's a lot of the civil unrest that was occurring was stirred up by undercover police and federal agents including the FBI. The problem is that it is too easy for people to convince themselves that any act is justifiable for the right cause.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
JohnH
seeker, I think you downplay the affects of a well funded ad campaign and how that may sway elections.

Scott Walker outspent his opponent 7 to 1 (according to Democracy Now). Much of the money from outside the state and a significant percentage (I have no idea of the actual amounts) from the infamous Koch brothers.

In California a $1.00 per pack tax on cigarets to fund cancer research was defeated. There was a very deceptive but well financed campaign against it by tobacco interests.

With the Citizens United decision I suspect that this will become a standard aspect of the electoral process in this country. Where a legislator or proposed bill is considered important to some people or an organization or business significant monies will be spent on elections. Much of it from outside interests or individuals. Since most rich individuals and organizations are conservative to very conservative one can readily imagine what that will mean in US politics.

TE, I am not sure if your ideas will work. I think particularly with complex issues the general public cannot necessarily understand all the issues, even if they were better trained. I know I have regretted election decisions I have made in the past when I realized the real consequences. I do not remember for sure if I voted for California's three strikes law but I do not remember being particularly upset when it passed. Now after seeing how overzealous prosecutors have used it I am very sorry it passed. For those who do not know it was a bill aimed at felons convicted for the third time and allowed them to be put in prison for life. It was sold on the basis of getting habitual and violent criminals off the street. Far to often it has been applied to persons who have been convicted of felonies but have not exhibited particularly violent behavior.

The above paragraph is not as true when considering individuals in legislative or executive elections. People I think are easier to read than complex legal issues.

Even there though people allow emotion and often incumbency to sway their decisions. For example Dianne Feinstein will almost certainly be reelected senator from California in November. Feinstein is 78 and senator has a 6 year term. I have my own political beefs with her, she is a classic democrat in name only, but anyone that age who does not have the sense to admit they should retire from politics is showing a trait that should not be tolerated. The trait of loving the game of politics more than wanting to represent your constituents. I just do not think a person 78 has the energy to truly represent. Mind you on my mothers side I had a cousin who was fit and sharp until 91 or so. But I do not think he could regularly travel away from his home in Berkeley.
 
Theory_Execution
Again Seeker, i cannot condemn them for having the plans and not the product, when they have not been given the tools and the resources to make said product.

School should kit you out with the skills for life - yet a lot of education is based upon 'taking at their word'. There should be more time spent on sources. I know History lessons at school looked at this, but even there they would typically only ever treck back to a book, another authority - I dont trust Historians for this reason, it is an art.

Brain storming (a non-PC term now apparently) or mind mapping is an excellent way of training minds - association games, word games all prepare the mind to look beyond the immediately obvious.

But as JohnH shows there with his figures, the average joe of the voting public is not paid to think of all outcomes of their vote, whereas interested parties who do have large sums of money can pay people to do just that.
 
seeker
I don't downplay the effect of advertising, I bemoan the fact that people know advertising is deceptive yet still are affected. What is the point at which we should expect people to wise up to the fact that the people who shout the loudest are not necessarily right?

TE, you make a fair point that a lot of people aren't educated enough to do much more than 'take the word' of some or other chosen expert but even that is questionable. How bad should we let things get before we start taking responsibility for repeating the same errors over and over? Just in the US alone this cycle of corruption has played out several times in our brief two and a half centuries.

Were this some new phenomenon in our species history I might agree with you guys but the consistent recurrence of this cycle of elite groups usurping the broader public interest across every different culture and form of government we've ever devised points to an unwillingness on the part of the broader public to remain engaged in the workings of government.

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
I dont know how we can go about putting in the changes to increase the education level across the board - a lot of it comes down to parents wanting their children to do better than them, but, even though I imagine near all parents want this, some go about 'helping' their children by forcing them to do things they do not want to do - having them learn through fear of violence.

In other situations, parents simply have no ambition.

So I agree Seeker, it is typical and it would be nice to see things change, it would be nice for people to value what matters and I think NOW is the time for people to start the wheels in motion. But I do not have children, I likely never will, I do not have the capacity to be a teacher either.

But NOW is always now, contrary to what potential employers would tell me, you cannot ever be over-educated.
 
seeker
Theory_Execution wrote:

I dont know how we can go about putting in the changes to increase the education level across the board - a lot of it comes down to parents wanting their children to do better than them, but, even though I imagine near all parents want this, some go about 'helping' their children by forcing them to do things they do not want to do - having them learn through fear of violence.

In other situations, parents simply have no ambition.

So I agree Seeker, it is typical and it would be nice to see things change, it would be nice for people to value what matters and I think NOW is the time for people to start the wheels in motion. But I do not have children, I likely never will, I do not have the capacity to be a teacher either.

But NOW is always now, contrary to what potential employers would tell me, you cannot ever be over-educated.


I'm pretty lucky. I'm old enough to have been in school here in the US when the educational philosophy of many teachers was to teach critical thinking and encourage creativity. This is no longer the case here and hasn't been since the mid seventies or so.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
I dont know what it was in my education - I wasn't in lessons as much as the other kids, I would be pulled out to work on noticeboard displays because I had a bit or artistic talent.

I do recall one class when I was about 11, every thursday we would have to go home and watch the news, or read the papers, and then come in for the friday and sit and talking about a piece of news we had stumbled upon - that was a really good lesson.

The teacher of that (was also the headmaster of the school), turned out to be a paedophile. It was a Roman Catholic school and I remember the teachers having us sit in an assembly and pray for him to come back - I never knew if they knew that he had been arrested, and I only found out because we saw him on the TV news a few months or so later.

That was probably the seed of my atheism right there, because over the next few years it grew.
 
seeker
Nothing like a sexual predator to influence the morals of our youth.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
His outward persona was agreeable, we got on well, as far as I recall he never tried anything with me (he was a fan of little girls).

The strange/funny thing is, he was caught because when he had his films developed (something that doesnt happen so much in the world of modern digital media, they found pictures taken through gaps in a fence of his neighbours little girl.

I hope he was strictly voyeur and didnt interfere - but the good ol' RCC are good about not talking about those things.
 
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