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I was going to post about Thunderf00t...
Skeeve
but I just saw a post linked via Twitter that covers it all quite nicely.

Big thanks to @WoolyBumblebee for a clear explanation:

Hacking, Doc-Dropping, and Ethics - Thunderf00t

edit- I think I'll create a Blogroll for the front page, I've been running across some great blogs recently while keeping up with the all the drama. Is God a Squirrel? will be there.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Theory_Execution
Could you translate point 7 for me, Iv not a fuck what that means.
 
Skeeve
This seems to be a question that many people in the community are conflicted over. Many are saying that is was unethical of Thunderf00t to have done this. But is that because it truly was unethical, or because it is uncomfortable for us to examine?

When discussing the 'ethics' of this situation we must first define what we mean by ethics in relation to this issue. Ethics, in this instance refers to an individual moral sense / personal ethics.

As it is personal ethics we are discussing, we cannot then say that what Thunderf00t did was unethical. It depends what Thunderf00t sees as his personal ethic. We can't dictate what that is based on our own personal ethics. You can say that it goes against what you would consider ethical, but you cannot assume that others may share that same view.

So was it unethical? That would depend on what Thunderf00t's personal ethics are. We can only say weather it is or not based on our own individual sense of personal ethics, and that does not make it ethical or unethical in an absolute sense.


Basically, regardless of what one thinks, ethics aren't black and white across the board. It's up to each individual as to whether or not his actions were unethical.

I don't want to compare him to Bradley Manning, but the analogy is similar. The information released outweighed the act, at least IMO, others disagree. That is basically it.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
JohnH
I find point 7 not only confusing as TE suggests but a poor argument about ethics in general. If I took that statement about ethics to its logical conclusion it would be overkill so I will not.

But, how about something short of its logical conclusion. I think that killing the yappy annoying dog that lives across the street from my wife is an ethical act. I know from conversation that many of the neighbors of this dog would agree with me. I think most who have endured yappy annoying dogs would agree. I would suggest however that if the general public was queried killing another persons dog with out their permission would not be considered an ethical act.

Now I may be blurring the line between ethical and moral. A line which is blurry at best. But, I think it is obvious where I am going.

Ethics cannot be entirely personal. Is it ethical to lie to a lover about if you were with another last night, maybe and maybe not, that can be very personal. Is it ethical to harm another who you wish to harm. That is not very clear and is not so situational and maybe should not be done.

Questions of ethics are not entirely up to the person who acts. There are social restraints which we must all accept or society will not function.

This spoken by someone who has made decisions about personal acts that would not only be considered unethical they were illegal.
Edited by JohnH on 08/13/2012 12:22
 
Theory_Execution
What was this information he revealed?

I am guessing from the general mood that he was a member of group A, group A withdrew his membership after some turmoil, and proceded to speak shit about him behind his back.

He somehow regains access to group A's discussions, and then reveals them to the world?

If that's how it went, more power to him.
 
Skeeve
Basically, TE.

He didn't reveal any personal information available in the mailing list, but he did cut/paste some snippets of discussions. Nothing to call the NSA about.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
JohnH
Also in Thunderf00t's defense, I believe that his own personal data was released by one of his detractors. I think what he did was ethical that was not my argument above.

I think what was posted by WoolyBumblebee about ethics was so broad as to allow behavior which most would find unethical as acceptable if your own ethics allowed it. I cannot and will not agree with that.

When I was playing basketball in my college gym I was being eaten alive by a player who was a 3rd or 4th team player on my college team. Somewhere late in the game he had me beat so I shoved him into the temporary and pulled back stands. I could have hurt him badly, I did it because at the moment it seemed the correct thing to do. That action, by even my own definition, years (almost 50) later was unethical.
 
Cynic
[url=http://atheiststoday.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=2150&pid=25678#post_25678]JohnH wrote:[/url

When I was playing basketball in my college gym I was being eaten alive by a player who was a 3rd or 4th team player on my college team. Somewhere late in the game he had me beat so I shoved him into the temporary and pulled back stands. I could have hurt him badly, I did it because at the moment it seemed the correct thing to do. That action, by even my own definition, years (almost 50) later was unethical.



I am glad that, over time, you have gained a level of ethical sophistication beyond that of chess-playing Wookies old since college. :-)

I agree that Point 7 was a bunch of meaningless drivel. Having read it first, it actually caused me to regard the rest with the utmost suspicion. It's sad that ethics is most often used to rationalize what people want to defend rather than to discover what they should not.
 
Skeeve
I agree that even personal ethics needs somewhat of a consensus among groups of people. My above post was a brief explanation of what I thought she was trying to say, not what I was saying. (Just to be clear)

My personal take on the matter was that it was unethical in the sense that he did violate a trust somewhat. But, he had prior knowledge of the content of the mailing list and probably felt it was a minor "sin" compared to the actual conversation(s) he wanted to expose.

I would be completely against his actions if his only purpose was to embarrass, harass or reveal personal information maliciously.

As it is, I don't have any real problems with his conduct in this instance. I know some won't agree and I'm cool with that.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Theory_Execution
The phrase 'personal ethics' is meaningless to me, we already have a perfectly fine set of words for what that first post was refering to - desires, whims and preferences.

It is only when you consider how your personal drives affect others, and moderate to find an amicable settlement for You+ that ethics are born.

What likely happened is that, the poster thought "Nope, 6 points doesn't look right, you must have 3, 5 or 7 points, or leap to ten, I cant make it to ten, and I dont want to cut one off, so Ill hash out a seventh."
 
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