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Newborn Dies While Group Prayed
Hypatia
http://www.abqjou...splashtop1

Saturday, July 04, 2009

Newborn Died While Group Prayed

By Hailey Heinz
Copyright 2009 Albuquerque Journal
Journal Staff Writer

The parents say their infant's death was the will of God.

Albuquerque police are calling it a "suspicious" death, and the District Attorney's Office must decide if a crime was committed.

A woman attending a church conference in Albuquerque with her husband didn't call for medical treatment while giving birth to twins in a hotel room, even as one of the newborns struggled to breathe, according to a search warrant affidavit.

That child died while church members gathered in prayer. The other child survived, but the parents declined to take the infant to be checked at a hospital.

According to a search warrant affidavit, Samuel and Tammy Kaufman told police at the scene they did not believe in man's medicine, only God, and that their child's death was God's will.

The case could set up a classic clash between child welfare laws and religious beliefs.


These people didn't call for medical help because one of the twins was struggling to breathe (or because the second twin also struggled to breathe, but managed to survive), but only called for rescue personnel after the baby died and asked them to 'collect the body'.

The only help these 'parents' summonsed was for members of their church to pray for the infant, and when the child was in distress and couldn't breathe, and when she died, they said it was 'gods' will.

When a detective on the scene advised the Kaufman's to take the surviving infant to a hospital for an evaluation, they wouldn't let go of the baby to receive medical treatment and said they didn't believe in man, but only in 'god'.

I will be outraged if these people aren't charged with some form of murder and the surviving baby taken from them. They will obviously keep with holding medical treatment from her as they've made it clear what their beliefs are, and even though they lost one daughter because of it, they still aren't willing to change the way they think.

While it may be true that no one can say for certain the baby would have lived with medical intervention, the parents certainly cannot say she wouldn't have and that it would have been 'gods' will for her to have died anyway even with it.
 
catman
With people like that, it's "God's will" if it dies and "God's will" if it survives, since God is the cause of everything. They could at least have had the perspicacity to blame Satan. Why bother to believe, since the same things happen whether their God is allegedly involved or not? It's sick, I tell you, sick, and not in a good way.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Bob of QF
The death pretty much clinches the evidence that there is no god.

Or if there is? That god is pretty much evil...

Pitiful buncha rat-bastards.....
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
derF
catman wrote:
With people like that, it's "God's will" if it dies and "God's will" if it survives, since God is the cause of everything.


Ahh, yes, those religious idiots cover all the bases, don't they? Back when witch hunts were what people did to liven up a Saturday night they invented the idea that you could tell a witch by throwing her in water. If she floated then she was a witch and was killed. But if she sank and drowned then she was OK. DEAD . . . but OK! Great fun, eh what, boys?

Damn! How many times do I have to edit something before I get it write?
Edited by derF on 07/05/2009 01:05
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
Hypatia
catman wrote:
With people like that, it's "God's will" if it dies and "God's will" if it survives, since God is the cause of everything. They could at least have had the perspicacity to blame Satan. Why bother to believe, since the same things happen whether their God is allegedly involved or not? It's sick, I tell you, sick, and not in a good way.


Isn't it mind boggling that these people seem to not consider that the invention of modern medicine might also be 'gods will', and that 'he' would expect them to use common sense and have their children treated when they need it?

I never hear, or read, about them addressing that issue in any of these cases.
 
catman
No, the invention of modern medicine is a work of Satan, since it interferes with the elegant simplicity of God's will. Common sense is likewise an obstruction of God's will and is also a work of Satan.

I can see why there are so many religious writers. This rubbish is so much fun to write!
Edited by catman on 07/05/2009 14:05
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Bob of QF
catman wrote:
No, the invention of modern medicine is a work of Satan, since it interferes with the elegant simplicity of God's will. Common sense is likewise an obstruction of God's will and is also a work of Satan.

I can see why there are so many religious writers. This rubbish is so much fun to write!


It's easy, too.

Just think along a rational thought-line. Then write just the opposite, label it with "god" tag, and viola!

<eyeroll>
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
sin
Rat bastards indeed Angry

I wonder if the parents have ever been innoculated, had an eye exam, wore glasses, took an asprirn/ibuprofen? Were they born in a hospital or at least had some medical treatment from their parents?

I bet they did and had a lot of medical treatments in their lifetime. At the very least when they were infants/children or being born themselves.

I wonder if anyone ever looks into the past of these rat bastard wackaloons. I hope they at least get involuntary manslaughter if not murder in the first degree or second degree. I'm sick of religion being the excuse to get away with murder especially when we all know it's just an excuse to get away with murder.
 
derF
Sin said rat bastard wackaloons.


And I think she meant it !
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
sin
derF wrote:
Sin said rat bastard wackaloons.


And I think she meant it !


Ha ha you bet your ass I did. Pfftunchkitty:
 
Doubting Thomas
Well, I may have a dark side for saying so, but the more Christians who believe in prayer vs. medicine makes it likely they'll die off. It's evolution at work.
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me and not you.
 
Adam Ajaja
Doubting Thomas wrote:
Well, I may have a dark side for saying so, but the more Christians who believe in prayer vs. medicine makes it likely they'll die off. It's evolution at work.


The trouble here is that kid may not have turned out as a xtian. Their idiocy doesn't just damage themselves
Edited by Adam Ajaja on 07/06/2009 08:34
 
sin
Ha ha ha ha DT that's funny...evolution at work ha ha ha

Adam you are right but it is funny when you think about what DT said and it pertains only to the adult xtians who choose that life. I would like to find a website where we can find out the outcome of stories like this. What happend to the accuse, guilty? What sentence, if any, were they given? Sort of like a Snopes for news about religious wackaloons.
 
Doubting Thomas
And I just have to point out again the futility of prayer. If someone is sick and everyone prays for them but they die anyway, the ones who were praying usually say that "it was God's will" that the person die.

So why pray? If it's God's will that someone die when they're sick, then no amount of prayer can change that. It's like saying "God, I want you to do what you're never going to do." If it's God's will that someone live after being sick, then praying for them to get better is like saying, "God, I want you to do what you're going to do anyway." It's just totally useless.

The only thing prayer is really good for is giving helpless people in hopeless situations a way to think they can actually do something about it.
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me and not you.
 
sin
Doubting Thomas wrote:
And I just have to point out again the futility of prayer. If someone is sick and everyone prays for them but they die anyway, the ones who were praying usually say that "it was God's will" that the person die.

So why pray? If it's God's will that someone die when they're sick, then no amount of prayer can change that. It's like saying "God, I want you to do what you're never going to do." If it's God's will that someone live after being sick, then praying for them to get better is like saying, "God, I want you to do what you're going to do anyway." It's just totally useless.

The only thing prayer is really good for is giving helpless people in hopeless situations a way to think they can actually do something about it.[/


Exactly.

It's really all they can do is pray but what they are actually doing is just hoping only calling it praying. What I'd like to know is what happened to "ask and you shall receive" well that goes out the window.

I have been told the god isn't a magic genie and don't expect every prayer to be granted with a yes. That always sounded like bullshit to me. Why teach as and ye shall receive or pray with faith and god will grant what you ask ...within reason LOL. Also what happened to the jesus being present when two or more people come together and pray? shit they just ignore every single part of the bible to excuse the fact that prayer is nothing more than hoping and wishful thinking with the only real belief in believing they are actually doing something.

People need to feel they are doing something and they associate that with physical action. When they pray they are physically, vocally taking some form of action...meaningless action except for the emotional pacifier albeit but none the less somewhat physical/vocal. Same with crossing themselves and kneeling it's the physical action that makes them feel ....believe they are actually doing something. This I think is why they are taught to kneel, cross themselves, confess, etc. Associate it with physical, vocal action and voila they invoked magic powers from the invisible magician outside of time.
Edited by sin on 07/06/2009 22:49
 
General-Pryce
Thats sick. reminds me of a joke, that I may have read here actually:

A woman falls over a boat and begins drowning. So she prays to god for help.

A swimmer swims by and tries to help but she refuses saying god will help.

Then a row boat tries to help, again she refuses saying god will help.

Then the coast guard, but again she refuses saying god will help.

Finally a helicopter tries to pick her up but, she refuses saying god will help.

Eventually she drowns and ends up in heaven. God comes to meet her. She is awestruck. It is an amazing place.

"I can't believe I'm here with you oh Lord" She says

"Welcome to heaven. Before we begin everlasting paradise, do you have any questions?" Replies God

"Just one" starts the woman "I know you have your ways, but Oh Lord, why did you not save me when I was drowning?"

God waits a moment, a ripple of annoyance across his face before answering:

"What do you mean 'didn't try to save you'? I sent a swimmer, a row boat, the coast guard and a fucking helicopter!"
 
Bob of QF
I like your joke, G.P.

Nowadays, whenever I tell it, I end with:

"Off to hell with you!"

Smile
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Sinny
GP that was funny and I too have heard that one before. For me the true meaning of that joke is take every opportunity you get in life when you need it most. That joke isn't about a god offering help to me it's people reaching out to help people, or in this joke a person.

It doesn't make any sense to me to give a god credit when good things happen and illness are either cured or under control and then at the same time never once blame this god when no good comes from the praying. I don't buy that baloney excuse that the god knows better especially when ty claim it's outside of our time....Next time I hear tha baloney from a theist I'll jus tell them their god obviously needs a watch.
 
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